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draggonlaadyAs my boss so accurately pointed out today, my problem is not actually with the breeders that I deal with. It's with the people who had to have bred to have produced them!
Had to deal with two particularly fine examples today...
Phone conversation only, thankfully. This is the same woman mentioned here: http://draggonlaady.livejournal.com/103357.html
She called in today, wanting Frontline to use on her canaries because she thinks they have mites. I explained that I don't know if Frontline would even work on birds, since they have a rather different skin/follicle system than dogs, and even if it did, Frontline doesn't kill mites. Might, maybe, possibly, be useful for feather mites. Maybe. I'd have to call the company and ask. But not for mites.
She says "but the book I have says that you can use it." I asked what book, by who? by a bird breeder, she says. Is she a veterinarian? A pharmacologist? "no, but she shows birds and is a judge at bird shows." Well, I'm sorry, but that doesn't make her an expert on drugs.
"But it says right here that you can use a 0.9% solution of frontline, one drop, between the wings, for mites."
"That's nice, but that's NOT RIGHT. Frontline is NOT effective against mites. AND, it doesn't come in a 0.9% solution. So not only would I not recommend this, you're asking for a product that doesn't exist."
"Well then, what would you treat mites with?"
"I'd treat them with Ivermectin, but that's not something I can dispense over the counter, I'd have to see at least one of the birds to make sure that they actually have mites."
"Yeah, Ivermectin! That's what I'm looking for..."
"Uh. Ivermectin is not Frontline. Totally different products."
"I know, I need them both."
"Riiiight. Well, as I said, I can't dispense that without examining the birds."
"Ok. Well, how do you spell Ivermectin?"
She declined to make an appointment. I'm pretty sure she's off trying to get Ivermectin and/or Frontline from some internet pharmacy now.
Not that dog breeders are any saner than bird breeders...
For the following story, there are 4 main players. Male #1 = (RB) Rude bastard from http://draggonlaady.livejournal.com/103000.html. Female #1 = (RW) Rude's wife. Female #2 = Penniless. Female #3 = Penniless' daughter? younger woman, late 20's, I think.
So clear back to 8/29, RW called and wanted to make an appointment to get puppies tail docked and dewclaws removed. I asked how many puppies. She said she doesn't know yet, they're being born right now. Then she wanted to know how much it would cost, because she's paying for it but she doesn't actually own the dogs. I explained that it depends on how many puppies there are. It starts at about $60 and goes up... more for more puppies because it takes longer. Since there's 6 already and more to come, I'm expecting that'll be on the "up" side than the $60 side. "So, at least $50 then?" Um. Yeeeeah. So we scheduled an appointment, and I told her to call back when all the pups were born, so we knew how many to expect and could give her a more accurate price quote. She did, amazingly enough. But she was very surprised when the receptionist quoted her the final total (for ELEVEN puppies) because it was so much more than $50.
On the 31st, while I was doing the tails and dews, is when RB kept coming into the back treatment area and pestering me instead of waiting in the lobby and letting me work. In particular, he wanted to know how he could mark one of the puppies because he'd already picked out the one he wanted to keep and wanted to make sure he got the right one when they were ready to wean in 4 weeks. FOUR weeks? Well, we really recommend you leave the pups with mom at least 6 weeks. As for marking them, most people put different colored ribbons around their necks to tell them apart. Though how you can tell at 2 days old which pup has the personality you want is beyond me. "Well, won't the mom just chew the ribbons off? Can I just mark her with Blue-Kote?" sigh. "The puppies are black. Blue-Kote won't show up on them anyway. Besides which, the bitch is much more likely to lick that off than she is to chew off a ribbon. So no, not so much. Please go wait in the lobby now, so I can actually do what you brought the pups in for me to do."
On the 6th, RW called, wanting to know if she could give her puppy Kaopectate, because she thinks it's constipated. Receptionist told her no. First of all, puppies don't get constipated very often and if it really IS constipated, Kaopectate is the opposite of what you want to give, because that's for firming up diarrhea.
Later on the 6th, RW called again, wanting to know if she could give her puppy Kaopectate, because she thinks it's constipated. I told her no. First of all, puppies don't get constipated very often and if it really IS constipated, Kaopectate is the opposite of what you want to give, because that's for firming up diarrhea. Then I asked what the puppy was doing that made her think it was constipated. "Well, she's just having trouble passing stool. She's collapsed a couple times and stopped breathing and I had to breathe for her." WHAT THE FUCK?? That's so very not constipation that I cannot begin to explain the wrong. So long story short, pup has had several incidences of getting really excited, barking, urinating, and collapsing. To which I respond, that's a seizure. That's got absolutely nothing to do with her intestines. Most common causes of seizures in a pup that young would be hypoglycemia or hyperthermia. How much milk is mom producing, and are you supplementing the puppies? Well, seems that since they don't actually own mom, or live with Penniless who does, they just took their puppy (at 2 fucking days old!) and have been bottle feeding it instead of leaving it with mom. So we had a fairly detailed discussion of the pros and cons of bottle feeding, proper positioning and amounts and frequency, and proper temperature and heating bottles and so on. And other than that, there's nothing I can do over the phone. And then... and then... oh God, can I even say this? Then the woman fucking asks if she should give the puppy kaopectate for it's constipation. Shoot me.
On the 9th, Penniless calls me on the emergency phone because she thinks one of the puppies has fluid in it's lungs. What can she do? I describe as best as I can how to "swing" a puppy to get fluid out of it's throat/lungs if it's just swallowed it, but explain that it's unlikely to get all of it out, and that the pup's at a pretty big risk for a bacterial pneumonia. In the midst of my explanation, she asks if she should give it a baby aspirin. I think I may actually have laughed in shock at this. What does she think aspirin is going to help, when the puppy is effectively drowning in milk? No, don't give it aspirin. don't give it ANYTHING. There is nothing you have at home that you can give this puppy to make the milk in it's lungs go away. And we return to describing swinging the pup. Highly recommend she bring the pup in. Probably should start it on antibiotics if it survives the night. And I specifically described for them the proper position to hold pups in while bottle feeding to avoid aspiration.
On the 10th, RW called, wanting to know if she could give her puppy Kaopectate, because she thinks it's constipated....
TODAY, Penniless and daughter? show up with a puppy that's "sick". Turns out that 5 pups have died now. When I ask what this pup in particular has been doing, they respond that it was fine until just today, and now it's doing the same thing that the last pup that died did, and they're worried it's going to die too. Ok. What did the last pup do before it died? Well, it was fine and then it just got sick the day before yesterday and died yesterday. Perhaps you're not understanding the question:
what. is. the. pup. doing. that. makes. you. think. it. is. sick?
After several rounds of repeated questions and non-answers we come down to the aspiration pneumonia thing again. Discuss proper positioning during bottle feeding (again) and go to get some antibiotics to start the pups on. I warn them that antibiotics may cause diarrhea in the pups, and they should watch for that...at which point Penniless interrupts me to say that she doesn't clean the puppies. she won't do that. she lets the mom do that. Ok, but that doesn't make any difference. You need to watch the puppies for diarrhea, and for signs of scalding or diaper rash under the tail or on the back legs. If you see that, we need to stop the antibiotics, and treat the scald with diaper rash ointment. "well, I put bag balm on the mom." "you what? why?" "because she's all scratched and chewed up from the puppies pawing at her." "ok. fine. but that's not in any way related to what I'm talking about. If the puppies get a diaper rash, please treat it with a diaper-rash ointment, and call us."
As we're (finally!) wrapping up, the daughter? pipes up with "But I don't understand how they could get milk in their lungs." I ask her how she holds the pups when feeding them. She fumbles through a not-answer that does not help me at all explain that she's holding them upside down. I finally point to the puppy she's holding, and say "show me. put the puppy in the position you held her to feed her. use the puppy you have in your hands."
So she does--she flips the pup completely over on her back, with her head tilted slightly up, and then pretends to have a bottle in the other hand, held directly over the head. I explain that when she holds the bottle straight up like that, the milk will continue to drip out of the nipple, even when the pup's not sucking--so it cannot breathe without inhaling milk. I then take the puppy back, and show them how she should be holding it. And then I have to explain it AGAIN because she still doesn't get it. And then I give up, because they've decided that since there aren't as many puppies anymore, they won't bottle feed them anyway, mom has enough milk for 6.
Had to deal with two particularly fine examples today...
Phone conversation only, thankfully. This is the same woman mentioned here: http://draggonlaady.livejournal.com/103357.html
She called in today, wanting Frontline to use on her canaries because she thinks they have mites. I explained that I don't know if Frontline would even work on birds, since they have a rather different skin/follicle system than dogs, and even if it did, Frontline doesn't kill mites. Might, maybe, possibly, be useful for feather mites. Maybe. I'd have to call the company and ask. But not for mites.
She says "but the book I have says that you can use it." I asked what book, by who? by a bird breeder, she says. Is she a veterinarian? A pharmacologist? "no, but she shows birds and is a judge at bird shows." Well, I'm sorry, but that doesn't make her an expert on drugs.
"But it says right here that you can use a 0.9% solution of frontline, one drop, between the wings, for mites."
"That's nice, but that's NOT RIGHT. Frontline is NOT effective against mites. AND, it doesn't come in a 0.9% solution. So not only would I not recommend this, you're asking for a product that doesn't exist."
"Well then, what would you treat mites with?"
"I'd treat them with Ivermectin, but that's not something I can dispense over the counter, I'd have to see at least one of the birds to make sure that they actually have mites."
"Yeah, Ivermectin! That's what I'm looking for..."
"Uh. Ivermectin is not Frontline. Totally different products."
"I know, I need them both."
"Riiiight. Well, as I said, I can't dispense that without examining the birds."
"Ok. Well, how do you spell Ivermectin?"
She declined to make an appointment. I'm pretty sure she's off trying to get Ivermectin and/or Frontline from some internet pharmacy now.
Not that dog breeders are any saner than bird breeders...
For the following story, there are 4 main players. Male #1 = (RB) Rude bastard from http://draggonlaady.livejournal.com/103000.html. Female #1 = (RW) Rude's wife. Female #2 = Penniless. Female #3 = Penniless' daughter? younger woman, late 20's, I think.
So clear back to 8/29, RW called and wanted to make an appointment to get puppies tail docked and dewclaws removed. I asked how many puppies. She said she doesn't know yet, they're being born right now. Then she wanted to know how much it would cost, because she's paying for it but she doesn't actually own the dogs. I explained that it depends on how many puppies there are. It starts at about $60 and goes up... more for more puppies because it takes longer. Since there's 6 already and more to come, I'm expecting that'll be on the "up" side than the $60 side. "So, at least $50 then?" Um. Yeeeeah. So we scheduled an appointment, and I told her to call back when all the pups were born, so we knew how many to expect and could give her a more accurate price quote. She did, amazingly enough. But she was very surprised when the receptionist quoted her the final total (for ELEVEN puppies) because it was so much more than $50.
On the 31st, while I was doing the tails and dews, is when RB kept coming into the back treatment area and pestering me instead of waiting in the lobby and letting me work. In particular, he wanted to know how he could mark one of the puppies because he'd already picked out the one he wanted to keep and wanted to make sure he got the right one when they were ready to wean in 4 weeks. FOUR weeks? Well, we really recommend you leave the pups with mom at least 6 weeks. As for marking them, most people put different colored ribbons around their necks to tell them apart. Though how you can tell at 2 days old which pup has the personality you want is beyond me. "Well, won't the mom just chew the ribbons off? Can I just mark her with Blue-Kote?" sigh. "The puppies are black. Blue-Kote won't show up on them anyway. Besides which, the bitch is much more likely to lick that off than she is to chew off a ribbon. So no, not so much. Please go wait in the lobby now, so I can actually do what you brought the pups in for me to do."
On the 6th, RW called, wanting to know if she could give her puppy Kaopectate, because she thinks it's constipated. Receptionist told her no. First of all, puppies don't get constipated very often and if it really IS constipated, Kaopectate is the opposite of what you want to give, because that's for firming up diarrhea.
Later on the 6th, RW called again, wanting to know if she could give her puppy Kaopectate, because she thinks it's constipated. I told her no. First of all, puppies don't get constipated very often and if it really IS constipated, Kaopectate is the opposite of what you want to give, because that's for firming up diarrhea. Then I asked what the puppy was doing that made her think it was constipated. "Well, she's just having trouble passing stool. She's collapsed a couple times and stopped breathing and I had to breathe for her." WHAT THE FUCK?? That's so very not constipation that I cannot begin to explain the wrong. So long story short, pup has had several incidences of getting really excited, barking, urinating, and collapsing. To which I respond, that's a seizure. That's got absolutely nothing to do with her intestines. Most common causes of seizures in a pup that young would be hypoglycemia or hyperthermia. How much milk is mom producing, and are you supplementing the puppies? Well, seems that since they don't actually own mom, or live with Penniless who does, they just took their puppy (at 2 fucking days old!) and have been bottle feeding it instead of leaving it with mom. So we had a fairly detailed discussion of the pros and cons of bottle feeding, proper positioning and amounts and frequency, and proper temperature and heating bottles and so on. And other than that, there's nothing I can do over the phone. And then... and then... oh God, can I even say this? Then the woman fucking asks if she should give the puppy kaopectate for it's constipation. Shoot me.
On the 9th, Penniless calls me on the emergency phone because she thinks one of the puppies has fluid in it's lungs. What can she do? I describe as best as I can how to "swing" a puppy to get fluid out of it's throat/lungs if it's just swallowed it, but explain that it's unlikely to get all of it out, and that the pup's at a pretty big risk for a bacterial pneumonia. In the midst of my explanation, she asks if she should give it a baby aspirin. I think I may actually have laughed in shock at this. What does she think aspirin is going to help, when the puppy is effectively drowning in milk? No, don't give it aspirin. don't give it ANYTHING. There is nothing you have at home that you can give this puppy to make the milk in it's lungs go away. And we return to describing swinging the pup. Highly recommend she bring the pup in. Probably should start it on antibiotics if it survives the night. And I specifically described for them the proper position to hold pups in while bottle feeding to avoid aspiration.
On the 10th, RW called, wanting to know if she could give her puppy Kaopectate, because she thinks it's constipated....
TODAY, Penniless and daughter? show up with a puppy that's "sick". Turns out that 5 pups have died now. When I ask what this pup in particular has been doing, they respond that it was fine until just today, and now it's doing the same thing that the last pup that died did, and they're worried it's going to die too. Ok. What did the last pup do before it died? Well, it was fine and then it just got sick the day before yesterday and died yesterday. Perhaps you're not understanding the question:
what. is. the. pup. doing. that. makes. you. think. it. is. sick?
After several rounds of repeated questions and non-answers we come down to the aspiration pneumonia thing again. Discuss proper positioning during bottle feeding (again) and go to get some antibiotics to start the pups on. I warn them that antibiotics may cause diarrhea in the pups, and they should watch for that...at which point Penniless interrupts me to say that she doesn't clean the puppies. she won't do that. she lets the mom do that. Ok, but that doesn't make any difference. You need to watch the puppies for diarrhea, and for signs of scalding or diaper rash under the tail or on the back legs. If you see that, we need to stop the antibiotics, and treat the scald with diaper rash ointment. "well, I put bag balm on the mom." "you what? why?" "because she's all scratched and chewed up from the puppies pawing at her." "ok. fine. but that's not in any way related to what I'm talking about. If the puppies get a diaper rash, please treat it with a diaper-rash ointment, and call us."
As we're (finally!) wrapping up, the daughter? pipes up with "But I don't understand how they could get milk in their lungs." I ask her how she holds the pups when feeding them. She fumbles through a not-answer that does not help me at all explain that she's holding them upside down. I finally point to the puppy she's holding, and say "show me. put the puppy in the position you held her to feed her. use the puppy you have in your hands."
So she does--she flips the pup completely over on her back, with her head tilted slightly up, and then pretends to have a bottle in the other hand, held directly over the head. I explain that when she holds the bottle straight up like that, the milk will continue to drip out of the nipple, even when the pup's not sucking--so it cannot breathe without inhaling milk. I then take the puppy back, and show them how she should be holding it. And then I have to explain it AGAIN because she still doesn't get it. And then I give up, because they've decided that since there aren't as many puppies anymore, they won't bottle feed them anyway, mom has enough milk for 6.
