On Dog Training.

[draggonlaady]

And really, applicable to any kind of training. This article is a fairly long-winded way of saying that beating a dog into submission is not the same as training. All training should be based on rewarding desirable behavior while discouraging undesirable behavior (without scaring the life out of the trainee). I'm posting it, long-winded or not, because of the particular discussion of some of Cesar Millan's techniques, which I have parroted at me constantly at work.

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,2007250,00.html

It is very very frustrating having to explain to people who refuse to listen to me, because I am "only a veterinarian, not a dog trainer" that not all problems (and indeed, not even many problems) are dominance based, and won't be resolved by dominating.

Comments

[interactiveleaf.livejournal.com]

Well, I did get my dog to stop scamming food off tables and plates by scaring the living hell out of him. I think he thinks I'll kill him if he ever tries it again.

[draggonlaady.livejournal.com]

And one of the very few places where dominance can be an issue is... resource distribution.

[interactiveleaf.livejournal.com]

Gggggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

[draggonlaady.livejournal.com]

Don't try to dominate me, missy. I deal with recalcitrant animals ALL DAY EVERY DAY. :P

[neogrammarian.livejournal.com]

heh I had to look up Millan on wikipedia.

I just...sigh.

[draggonlaady.livejournal.com]

"The Dog Whisperer".... I didn't learn his name until at least 3 years after people started asking me about this "Whisperer" guy. Yeah, the behaviour associations are pretty unanimously united against him and the whole "every problem is dominance" schtick.

[neogrammarian.livejournal.com]

The article was interesting to me in that it opened up a difference between 'dominance' and 'leadership' which I'm not entirely sure I buy, though I suspect that I'm using neither in the way they are, since I've read none of this behavioral stuff, just watched many animals be social.


Also, if you haven't read the comic Pride of Baghdad, you totally need to, though it's very sad.

[draggonlaady.livejournal.com]

I should hunt up another article I read recently; in a small study, dogs would imitate motions and behaviours of the owner, even if they were rewarded for NOT doing so. I think the whole leadership/set an example thing is related to that. Also, that's probably how I can get away with letting my old hound dog do the majority of training on my foster dogs... ;)

Is it available on line?

[neogrammarian.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, I totally agree on the dogs mimicing their owner's motions (my dog yawns when I do for chrissakes).

No, PoB is a real live graphic novel, not online I'm afraid. It's about the bombing of the Baghdad Zoo and a group of lions who escape and roam Baghdad for a time. (True story, and the artist & author worked closely with GIs for information about it, as well as using the news articles about it). But it's from the perspective of the lions, and it's very cool.

[sphynx-again.livejournal.com]

Milan takes the worst of the aggression cases and makes amazing progress in those dogs. His basic premise is sound: dogs need exercise, discipline, and affection, in that order. (Dogs behave better and are able to focus better if they're not brimming with excess energy, just like kids... they can't "behave" if they don't know what's expected of them, and affection strengthens the bonds between you, making your dog more want to please you.) However, most people don't have the instincts and sheer force of personality to do what he does for these very aggressive dogs, and if they try, they are putting themselves in a very dangerous position. I've seen quite a few of his shows, and every single case had to do with some form of aggression which was a dominance issue. His methods work fantastic on those particular issues. But no, they don't work on everything. And I have to wonder, when the show's over, and he goes home, how many of those dogs revert right back to where they were before him, get into a dominance battle with their owner, and wind up dead or in a shelter?

When people ask me what I think of him and his methods, I tell them that if they raise their dog with consistant and realistic rules, affection, and meeting their species specific needs, they should never be in a position to need his methods. In other words, let the dog be a dog, and set the rules and enforce them fairly from day one.

[draggonlaady.livejournal.com]

I've never actually watched his shows. I have no personal experience of him, except for the "take home" message that my clients get, and it isn't something appropriate to use in puppy training. I've heard many clients come up with similar things that are utterly useless for their situations, but are totally convinced it's the way to train them because that's how "the dog whisperer" does it... very frustrating. And I've heard several behaviorists (at veterinary conferences) specifically ranting against him.

Not to say I've never out-aggressed a dog. I have. But it takes damn fine timing, and a very particular set of circumstances to be appropriate. I think people who do not work with animals full time watch his show and think that this one thing he does is the one and only way to address all training, and given how many people I've run across in my little practice that got that message, I can't imagine he's making any kind of explanation of appropriate situations.

[sphynx-again.livejournal.com]

you nailed it on the head there. No arguments from me. I find his show very entertaining to watch, because mostly the dogs he deals with are that way because the people are idiots. And he tries to give them the tools they need to make their dogs stop ruling the household. Unfortunately, I doubt he has any lasting impression on many of them. And does not address normal, run of the mill dog training at all. Just dominance issues. Gotta say though, the narrow spectrum he deals with, he's pretty darn effective! Luckily, I really haven't seen many people get carried away, trying to be him on their perfectly sound of mind, normally submissive dogs.

[draggonlaady.livejournal.com]

Lucky you :) I get people who think they need to 'alpha roll' their jack russell puppies.... when just teaching them to sit on command is much more effective in preventing them from jumping on people.

[kresentia.livejournal.com]

I think Milan has some great principles (EXERCISE!!! then discipline and lastly affection. Being confident and setting rules, etc. I have used a lot of his ideas with some serious problem dogs and recommended many of his principles to people in general) but I too am really tired of all this dominance BS. If the dog stands on your foot it's prob seeking security, not being dominant. If a puppy mouths you it's prob being a stupid puppy, not dominant, etc. I wish more people would read his disclaimer at the beginning - consult a dog trainer for your case!!! I think 90% of things are NOT dominance and get so tired of trying to our talk Milan. Of course, I also always tell people that you should listen to what different people say and decide what works for you but I swear sometimes I wish I could just whap people upside the head. Your lab is eating the furniture not because he is dominant but because he is 6 mo old, left alone all day loose in the house (a crate is not cruel! Surgery for the blockage it gets because you let it eat your sofa is cruel! Dumping it at the shelter to be put down is cruel!) and you think that letting it have an hour in the "big back yard so he gets plenty of exercise" (I have a treadmill so I must be in supermodel shape, right?) is enough for it to do! Whap!
Stillwell is quite interesting too but as I just said, you have to listen to lots of ideas and find what works for you - which does involve being smart enough to think things through, consider results, and apply your answers which I guess means it's above far too many dog owners. Sigh... I'm so thankful that so many of my human students are wonderful and want to learn!
Thanks for posting the article!

[draggonlaady.livejournal.com]

I think you sometimes get the advantage of having clients who came to you for training questions. I get incidental training questions from people who don't think I know anything about it.

[kresentia.livejournal.com]

Lucky you...
I do get some "special" people though, like the ones who ask for info then don't use it. I can accept forgetting but pointedly ignoring, sigh.

[draggonlaady.livejournal.com]

Oh, I get those too... call up and ask for advice, and then argue with what I say. What the fuck is the point of that? I suppose they were hoping I would just tell them to do whatever they already thought was best, because they know more about it than I do anyway....